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Old back injury and training question

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John Spies.oldschoolstreng...	Old back injury and training question	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2 ( 7-Jul-08 15:16:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hi, I injured my back after deadlifting a few years ago and every once in a while, I seem to reinjure it by doing the simplest things...like putting on socks! It's been over a year now with no incidents and I've decided to start lifting again. I went last week and while doing dumbell shoulder presses, I could 'feel' my lower back just getting the dumbells in place. What kind of routine can I do where I remove downward compression as much as possible? Bench-based machine exercises? Even after a few years of not lifting, I am still pretty strong so it is hard (and frustrating) to not be able to lift heavy (and on my feet) anymore. The dilemma is do I take the chance of hurting my back to get a good workout or continue to lift very light and become a 'pumper'? At least I don't wear spandex.....! I have access to a full gym with the normal machines. Thanks and it's great to be on the board again.
dblutz10		#1	[-]
Posts: 9 ( 7-Jul-08 17:59:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, I would definately take my time if I were you. Get the back thoroughly checked out, then strengthen it SLOWLY. Proper form should be the emphasis. Some say trap bar helps with compression issues, but I would definately start light. Back in the 70's, my brother screwed up his back doing squats at a base gym in Germany. He still lifts, but is scared to death of squats and deads. Can't say I blame him, after seeing him in a fetal position on the floor for days when a re-injury occurred. Good luck! Dave
grffn		#2	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 7-Jul-08 18:07:19) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have had a bad back just about my whole life also. I couldn't squat or deadlift without hurting myself for many years. What I did was get real serious with my stretching,proper technique,gradual progression. Started seeing a chiropractor, and (maybe the biggest help) started going to a great massage therapist regularly. (trigger points,assisted stretching,etc.) I also learned how to engage my transversus muscles when squatting and deadlifting,which after a while gave me miraculous results. Your right that not squatting and deadlifting hard and heavy is a big blow to a natural weight trainer in search of size and strength but if you try all the things I mentioned and still have trouble you can still work around the problem and not be relegated to "pumper" status!
J Duggan		#3	[-]
Posts: 126 ( 7-Jul-08 23:36:40) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hey Jgriff, I'm interested in knowing how you engage the transversus muscles. How did you learn to do it? Was it something you developed yourself? John spies---you got great advice. They're both absolutely right. Take it slowly, and always use proper form. Drew had a congenital back problem, and through a lot of work, thought, and advice, he developed his own way of training his legs/back/hips. He trained smart, and, of course, brutally hard. Whether it was with free weights or machines, he never let his form break down.
grffn		#4	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 8-Jul-08 01:04:42) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jim its hard to explain but here goes. I have afriend who is a strength coach for a college and he got me into the Transversus thing. I'm not exactly sure who came up with the method but Mike Boyle (fairly well known strength coach in Boston area,my friend graduated with him at Boston Univ) is the main proponent of it. There is a progression of exercises that you have to go thru to build enough strength and coordination to be able to do this while exercising. But the basic way to engage the Trans is to pull your bellybutton in to your spine,as if your trying to zip up a pair of pants that are too tight. You start just laying on your back and then progress to doing it while moving. The Transversus muscles are small muscles that lock your lower vertebraes in place. Theory is that this will prevent any movement of the spine while exercising which is the cause of most back pain from squat/deadlift. I won't say this has completely solved my problems but there is no doubt it has been a huge help. If you google Transversus abdominal on the internet you will get more/better info than what I just gave. It doesn't sound like much,and is contrary to what most powerlifters will tell you (push abs out,against belt) but it works great. My friend told me about a kid who got a 4 year free ride to his school who showed up with his back completely gone (slipped disc,and other problems) and was givin up on. He couldn't squat 135. after getting this going he went on to be all conference. and compete in powerlifting contests.
M BOB WHELAN		#5	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 8-Jul-08 08:04:24) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This may help a little - Off Wilkopedia - The muscle in movement and training - The most well known and effective method of strengthening it is the vacuum exercise, as well as engaging it during lifts. The transversus is the body's natural weight-lifting belt, stabilizing the spine and pelvis during lifting movements. Failure to engage the muscle at higher intensity lifts is dangerous and encourages injury. It acts as a girdle or corset in creating hoop tension around the midsection, tensing before contraction of the extremities. Without a stable spine, the nervous system fails to recruit the muscles in extremities efficiently, and functional movements cannot be properly performed.[citation needed] Stabilization must then occur at the segmental level. The transversus abdominis and the segmental stabilizers of the spine are designed to work in tandem. This kind of lifting eventually overloads segmental stabilizers, and can result in massive lower back pain, early degeneration and many orthopedic problems.
grffn		#6	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 8-Jul-08 12:44:50) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	When I was first told about this I thought "if its so great how come everyone isn't doing it?" and I often wondered why there was no mention of it in Hardgainer or other sensible places. But it has been a savior for me. I can't say I haven't had any problems but before I did this I would cripple myself with 135 pounds on my back and couldn't even think about a deadlift. If your not currently having trouble you may not be interested (although there are some that say you inevitably will have trouble if you don't adopt this method). If you can't squat or deadlift without alot of pain you gotta try it! Max Bob do you have any experience with this?
J Duggan		#7	[-]
Posts: 126 ( 8-Jul-08 23:21:13) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thank you for the info. It does make sense, although I have never tried it. And, like you mentioned Jgriff, like a lot of lifters, I was always taught not to hold your stomach in while squatting/deadlifting. Although I do not use a belt, I still remember that advice. I have used some of the exercises in Matt Furey's Combat Abs book, and one of them is the vacuum, which must be similar to what you described. At least the theory is probably the same.
grffn		#8	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 9-Jul-08 00:16:53) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The vacuum is similar but with the vac you blow out all your air first. engaging the T.A. while lifting is tricky. You must keep breathing yet keep the muscle flexed,also using high reps (which I always do with squat/deads) is a challenge. The book I was told to get is called Functional Training for Sports by Mike Boyle. I'm sure most of the stuff (info,exercises) can be had over the internet (free). The book other than that section (which is pretty large) isn't anything amazing (although not bad either). He calls the exercises "draw-in" exercises. There is a progression starting with quadraped (on all fours) and deadbug (laying on back). You would be surprised how difficult it is to do at first. The T.A muscle is so weak at first that you really don't feel much when flexing it at the start. The first progression is just laying on your back and placing a hockey puck (or something similar) below your belly button,draw-in,make the puck sink,then release and make the puck go up.But not by flexing the rectus abdominis. sounds easy but I had alot of trouble even doing this at first. then you start holding for a few seconds. Another early exercise is getting on all fours,drawing in,then straitening out your left leg and right arm (and vice versa) while holding the T.A flexed. This stuff drove me nuts for a while! I just stuck with it and its second nature now. Doing the Furey stuff may have you further along than I was. I had never even heard of stuff like the "plank" so I really had to work to be able to use this. Believe me I'm the biggest sceptic in the world,if your having back problems look into this stuff.
Selvey 26		#9	[-]
Posts: 4 (14-Jul-08 10:39:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I would do good mornings (parallel with VERY BENT knees) with a broom stick for high reps and slowly - S-L-O-W-L-Y work up to just the bar. Max Bob wrote about this once. Do them once a week and work the broom stick from 25 to 100 reps for one set slowly. Then move to a pipe slowly up the reps to 100, then to a bar with no weight and move up slowly from 25 to 100 reps. Once you get to the olympic bar (maybe 6 months from now) just do ONE set a week of about 20 reps. Add 2 1/2 pounds when it gets EASY. Keeps your knees very bent when you do them. Good luck.
Selvey 26		#10	[-]
Posts: 4 (14-Jul-08 12:14:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No more than 5 pounds per increase after you get to the bar. Add weight very slowly.
M BOB WHELAN		#11	[-]
Posts: 154 (15-Jul-08 12:41:42) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Selvey 26, are you Scott selvey from the old board? Anyway, great post. I have written about goodmornings just like you stated. If you start LIGHT with a broomstick and work up to 100 reps slowly, then as you stated move up slowly to higher poundage ie pipe, bar etc and eventually get to the olympic bar and add weight slowly, thats the way to really help your lower back. **You MUST keep your knees very bent and feet wide when you bend over to parallel. Good post. Last Edited By: M BOB WHELAN 15-Jul-08 13:06:43. Edited 2 times.
J Duggan		#12	[-]
Posts: 126 (15-Jul-08 13:01:56) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I remember an article ( I'm pretty sure it was from MILO) that described high-rep good mornings. I've been fortunate in that I've always been able to do good mornings without a problem. And high rep good mornings are a very effective way to build back strength. If you have access to a cambered bar it would probably make the movement more comfortable. And like Bob says, bent-knees are an absolute must.
grffn		#13	[-]
Posts: 154 (15-Jul-08 13:36:46) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I've always been scared to death to do good mornings. But I will probably try the method you guys just gave (slow progression). If I can't do good mornings with a broom stick without hurting myself I have no business squattin/deadliftin,then go from there. I've always believed that if you could get to using a decent weight your back would be bulletproof but was always afraid of what would happen on the way there!!!!
J Duggan		#14	[-]
Posts: 126 (16-Jul-08 14:57:28) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jgriff- You could also try seated good mornings. I've never tried them but have read about them. Some guys recommend doing them seated rather than standing because it's less stress on the back. Maybe it's worth trying both standing and seated and see which one is more effective/safer.
grffn		#15	[-]
Posts: 154 (16-Jul-08 15:19:36) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Do you guys think that good mornings are alot different than a hyperextension? It seems a seated good morning would be very close to a hyper. Just curious,I've never had trouble with hypers.
J Duggan		#16	[-]
Posts: 126 (17-Jul-08 12:36:16) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The only difference I found was just in the performance of the movement itself. Standing with the bar behind your neck as compared to using a hyper bench hits the back muscles in a similar way but not quite the same. Both are excellent movements, and I've used both at various times.
Silverback1946	Proceed with caution	#17	[-]
Posts: 45 (19-Jul-08 15:07:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Anyone with back problems, my advice would be to think hard about using good mornings standing-or seated same with Hypers. You may want to try rev Hypers but again with back problems you have to proceed with caution. I also have a back that turns on me.
grffn		#18	[-]
Posts: 154 (19-Jul-08 19:27:22) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I do have reservations with good mornings,big time. But to start with a broom stick,like I said, if that hurts me I got serious troubles!!! I have done rev hypers and didn't like the feeling. Seemed like a problem in the making. Regular hypers never bothered me. The reason I'm interested in good mornings is that it could prepare you for inadvertantly rounding or leaning forward on a squat. I know that should be avoided like the plague,but lets face it we all do it once in a while by accident. Having a strong good morning would reduce the chance of injury in that situation I would guess.
keith2237		#19	[-]
Posts: 26 (21-Jul-08 09:25:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	How do all of you feel still-leg deadlifts compare to good mornings and hypers both in terms of effectiveness and risk? I assume the sldl is not as risky since you are not resting the weight across the shoulders, therefore reduced strain on the back. (I am pictuing a weight on a bar with the fulcrum at the far end of the bar) Wiith the sldl the weight is generally kept closer to the center of the body. Then again, you know what happens when you assume. It seems the sldl is good at working the lower back/glutes/hams, at least that is where I seem to fell them most when I do them. Keith.
J Duggan		#20	[-]
Posts: 126 (21-Jul-08 10:18:09) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I've never found much in the way of results when doing SLDL. I've never had an injury doing them, I just never got the results that I got from good mornings or hypers. I got better results from doing bent-leg deads from a block, using a block high enough so that the bar was resting in front of my feet. It's just my own personal preference. I know lifters who got tremendous results from SLDLs. I think it's just another example of what works for one doesn't not necessarily work for everyone.